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Tim (tim)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 03:16 pm: | 
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Whether or not one CAN or SHOULD say something are two different questions. It isn't a free speech issue but one of tact and judgement. I can spout my political views at work amongst my peers, clients, and consultants but I would soon find myself out of work. Constantly engaging in political-speak may work on a college campus but it won't fly in most professional environments.
If Michael Moore is so confident in his opinion then let him write a book about it, post it on his website, or make a film expressing his views - the market will respond accordingly. |
Wladyzszlaw von Fröhlbeck (bagelbaron)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 04:19 pm: |
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He has done all three of the above. |
Carlo (spiro_t_agnew)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 05:20 pm: |
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My problem with Michael Moore has always been that, as bright as he is and as good as Bowling for Columbine is, he has always seemed more interested in promoting himself than his views. |
Irish Guy (tyrone)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 05:39 pm: |
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Quote:The hole you are digging for yourself just gets bigger and bigger doesn't it?
And the echoes of the same damn thing being said are getting louder and louder.
Quote:Oh, and I COULDN'T DISAGREE MORE about the appropriateness-yada yada yada talk.
I take it without the capital letters, you assume we wouldn't realizing you were DISAGREEING? You always seem to dismiss other people's opinion instead of responding to them. It seems you'd rather have everyone conform to the notion that what Mr. Moore did was appropriate and had to have been said. Some people do not agree with the place and the timing of his freedom of speech rights. If you simply cannot tolerate that, tough shit. I’m sick and tired of people like you brushing those who don’t agree with you aside. Listen for a change, and respond. Because all you do is react to what you don’t agree with.
I am happy with what I saw on the news today though. The Iraqi people rejoicing in a small yet significant victory. Was war necessary? I don’t know, maybe, maybe not. But if the UN were still going about its way they’d still be dicking around for months on end and blabbing about how they needed more time. The war has cost many innocent Iraqis to lose their lives. But I imagine how many Iraqis would have died anyway by the hands of their ‘government’ had we not done something. If we accidentally killed innocent people day by day, it would still take us many years to match up with how many Saddam’s loyalists have killed over the decades. He’s been in power far to long; it’s time he and his fellow dirt bags were exterminated. That’s my opinion at least, agree or disagree is your own right. |
AdamL (adaml)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 07:03 pm: |
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Quote:My problem with Michael Moore has always been that, as bright as he is and as good as Bowling for Columbine is, he has always seemed more interested in promoting himself than his views.
I agree with this. I felt he was in front of the camera far too much in Columbine, and he doesn't make a particularly good interviewer at all. He is a very skilled writer and a decent director, and should have put the focus on these things rather than embarass himself with his inept questioning technique.
Quote:I take it without the capital letters, you assume we wouldn't realizing you were DISAGREEING? You always seem to dismiss other people's opinion instead of responding to them.
This IS exactly RIGHT. MACKEY has not COME up with a single DECENT argument, rather he JUST states again and AGAIN that what MOORE did was APPROPRIATE. It is ONE thing to AGREE with what MOORE said - which MACKEY CLEARLY does. However, just BECAUSE you AGREE with the sentiment, does not mean it was APPROPRIATE to do it DURING your ACCEPTANCE speech at a FILM awards. Furthermore, he also did it on behalf of ALL of THE other DOCUMENTARY nominees - AT LEAST ONE of WHICH was a little UNHAPPY since he did not realise he was going TO DO IT. |
Frances Nicole (midge_wood)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 07:11 pm: |
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Hmm... Well, it's one thing to disagree with Mackey, quite another to mock him, even if you disagree with how he expresses himself. It's just like with Moore--you may not agree with what he said or how he said it, but it's no cause to throw stones at him as a person just because he did or said something or behaved in a way you disagreed with. |
with a hide of pure Unobtainium (docscribe)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 07:42 pm: |
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I...don't CARE...if I SEE...anymore CAPITAL letters...used in ANY post...for ANY reason...EVER! J |
Frances Nicole (midge_wood)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 07:52 pm: |
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:P
or should it be :p? |
with a hide of pure Unobtainium (docscribe)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 08:06 pm: |
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The lower case :p makes you look like you're sampling today's soup... |
Frances Nicole (midge_wood)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 08:12 pm: |
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*lol* |
Jennifer Connelly's favorite nympho (mackey3000)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 10:37 pm: |
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Hmm, nice way of avoiding the IFP question by inventing some stuff about how I can't accept dissent. I have NO PROBLEM with dissent (yeah, I know I use CAPS a lot. deal with it), I just couldn't disagree more with your posts, and express vehemently how much I disagree with them, and WHY I disagree. what's so wrong with that?
Basically ALL you say is it was innapropriate and/or disrespectful. That's it OVER AND OVER again. No more to it. No discussion of what he said. Just "wrong place at the wrong time." Forget that I disagree with both aspects, but just saying "wrong place at the wrong time" totally trivializes what he said, which, whether you agree with it or not, is important enough to cause debate about more than whether or not it was appropriate.
Adam says: The hole you are digging for yourself just gets bigger and bigger doesn't it?
I reply: hmm, I'm not aware I was digging a hole for myself by disagreeing with you, lol. I think YOU'RE the one digging a hole for me. well, I guess I better RUN. Oh, and I would be DELIGHTED if someone spoke their political beliefs in my funeral. As long, of course, as they didn't disagree with mine, and indeed complimented mine.
W*O*R*L*D P*E*A*CE*!!!!!!!!!! |
Irish Guy (tyrone)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 10:55 pm: |
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Quote:No discussion of what he said.
He implied he loves the word fictitious and said, ‘Shame on you Mr. Bush’. He doesn’t like the guy and thinks he’s a fraud. My God, someone who speaks out against a presidency, how original. I’m sure past presidents are glad they missed that bullet during their run…
So, what is there to discuss about what he said? You haven’t discussed what he said; only that he had a right to say it. If you accuse other people of going in circles, realize you’ve been pretty much going the same route yourself. You say he had a right. No one disputes he had the right, of course he did. But some people believe there is a time and a place for everything and winning an Oscar is not the time, in many people’s opinion, to dive into a tirade against a current president. It’s like me going to buy a cup of coffee, and then when I pay for it start screaming at the poor cashier about my political opinions. I have the right to tell this person what I think, but what makes me think he or she will give a damn at this particular time? If you have something say perhaps you should ask yourself if you’re saying it for other peoples benefit or your own. I think Mr. Moore spoke for his own benefit during the Oscar telecast and no one else’s. |
_ (shadowgrin)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 11:29 pm: |
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Quote:I think Mr. Moore spoke for his own benefit during the Oscar telecast and no one else’s.
I have to respectfully disagree with you there. Although I do understand what many have said about Micheal Moore's statement at the Oscars being in bad taste, I do not think it was self-serving. Moore's goal is to be an alternative voice in a time when mainstream media is bloated with patriotic propaganda. I think he said what he said because he firmly believes it. I suppose we can't really know what he was thinking when he made his statement, but I seriously doubt that his reasoning was solely for his own benefit. I think Mr. Moore truly believes that war in Iraq is wrong, and ultimately that belief has little to do with his book sales or the popularity of his film. |
Irish Guy (tyrone)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 11:35 pm: |
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shadow
Perhaps, of course I don’t know what was going on through his mind before, during and after his speech so I’m just speculating in the end. I do feel it was self-serving, I felt Michael Moore wanted to be heard, not what Michael Moore had to say. I don’t begrudge him his success or what he personally believes or his right to express what he believes. I just don’t think the Oscars were the place to say it, it’s as simple as that. If his intentions were noble or selfish it doesn’t matter. Like I said, there’s a time for everything and I fail to see how attacking a president at an event that honors film is a place to verbally lash out against Bush. |
_ (shadowgrin)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 11:51 pm: |
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Yeah, he probably should have kept his mouth shut. There is a time and place, and that wasn't the time. |
Jennifer Connelly's favorite nympho (mackey3000)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 04:05 pm: |
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COULDN'T DISAGREE MORE. I'll admit that maybe the tone wasn't right (his IFP speech was PERFECT and he should have done it in EXACTLY the same way and paid ZERO attention to the booing), I still loved what he had to say and agreed with ALL of it, and admired his cojones in saying it. And THANK GOD someone made a statement that bold and that vehemently anti-war before the night was over. Nevertheless, whether you think his speech was innappropriate or not, he shouldn't have kept his mouth shut. God, that's THE MOST AWFUL THING ANYONE COULD HAVE DONE. Even though she's one of the celebrities I most admire, and she's usually verrrrry outspoken, I was dissapointed that Susan Sarandon simply made a peace sign. It seemed to me like she was going to say more, but changed her mind (I hesitate to say WIMPED OUT, since I respect her so much) when she heard the response to Moore's speech. I may be wrong, like the great Sir Charles says, but I doubt it. |
Glenda Glamazon (alison_aboutfilm)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 04:08 pm: |
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Mackey--Please, since the majority of the community has requested it, could you cut back on the caps? It is impolite in Netiquette to use them as frequently as you do. Feel free to check out the formatting link on the left to find out how to italicize or underline the words you want to emphasize so that you aren't YELLING them.
Thank you. |
Jeff Vorndam (jeff)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 04:34 pm: |
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COULDN'T AGREE MORE, Glenda. |
Irish Guy (tyrone)
| | Posted on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 12:50 am: |
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Quote:And THANK GOD someone made a statement that bold and that vehemently anti-war before the night was over.
Why 'THANK GOD' someone made a statement? It's not as if this was their only shot on making any statement whatsoever, what purpose did it serve making that statement at the Oscars? What would your reaction have been had someone made a pro-war speech? Would your belief in freedom of speech give them the same courtesy? Would you say you didn’t agree with them but defend their right to say it? Or is your definition of freedom of speech reserved only for those who share your opinion and be damned with everyone else’s?
Quote:Oh, and I would be DELIGHTED if someone spoke their political beliefs in my funeral. As long, of course, as they didn't disagree with mine, and indeed complimented mine.
In the event this is not a sarcastic remark, why would you begrudge anyone to say anything at your funeral that did not coincide with what you believed? Is their freedom of speech restricted at events that honor your life? (Though you don't have shit all to say in the end on who says what). Isn’t our argument saying that Moore shouldn’t have spoke about an issue at an event that didn’t call for it? What's your definition of 'freedom of speech' anyway? |
AdamL (adaml)
| | Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 07:41 pm: |
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Quote:Mackey--Please, since the majority of the community has requested it, could you cut back on the caps?
HALLELUY...
HALLAYLUJ...
HALELOOJ...
HOORAY. |
Glenda Glamazon (alison_aboutfilm)
| | Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 07:53 pm: |
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Adam--I'm glad you're happy, but there's no need to gloat about it. I know Jeff also said something, and perhaps I should have asked him not to, but as he's also a moderator here, I left his comment alone. It's not my interest to run mackey away or make him feel unwelcome from posting here, so please don't be so smug. |
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